Sunday, May 04, 2008

Supernaturalism, Tradition and the Law

Ever notice how weird it is that you can believe any crazy shit you want, implement it as government policy, teach it in public schools or whatever, so long as you scrupulously avoid referring to a supernatural being. Such a belief doesn't have to actually be rational or scientific, so long as you claim that you arrived at it through purely rational or scientific means. Conversely, if you want to enact a sensible policy, but make your appeal to the people on the basis of traditional attachment to some supernatural entity, you are an enemy of peace, order, and good government.

I remember sitting in one classroom in downtown Toronto during my practicum where a we watched a film that presented the case that the pyramids were the work of some alien civilization. I know that many teachers present Michael Moore documentaries in their classroom almost without comment. While subbing north of Toronto, I was given the film What the Bleep Do We Know? to show to the class. Its muddled and mystical pseudo-science was apparently perfectly acceptable fare for the students of York Region, though a similar propagandist film for Christianity would have brought howls of protest.

The effect has been to on the defensive all political ideas based on tradition, because most traditions have been expressed in religious form. We don’t do these things because someone has thought out all the extended details, but because it is the command of God. I would suggest therefore that the prohibition against entanglement of religion and politics has become wholly arbitrary and should be abolished. In our present context it is nothing except a club for liberals, left and right, to beat traditionalist conservatives over the head with. Policy enacted for religious reasons is just as likely, perhaps even, being based on tradition, more likely, to be of benefit to the vast majority of people. That the secular reasons behind such policies may have been forgotten or never even consciously articulated, does not mean they are not there. Asking religious social conservatives to produce explicit secular justifications for every aspect of their policy preferences is absurd. Furthermore, even when we can see that a particular policy is possessed of good secular justifications, sometimes it can only be expressed to the commonality of men in religious terms.

For example, there are several good non-religious arguments against gay marriage. Clio put out the primary one:
I am concerned about same-sex marriage because I believe that the purpose of marriage is to tie biological fathers to their biological children. Same-sex marriage confuses and confounds that primary purpose of marriage because it insists that biology is of no significance to marriage, and moreover that biological parenthood is also not important to the formation of families. It is one thing to say that gay people can be good parents, which I believe. It is another thing to say that biological parenthood doesn't really matter.

Right, marriage is there to convince masculine men to express their masculinity by sticking around and supporting their children, rather than in that other popular form of expressing your masculinity: screwing as many chicks as possible. Therefore, marriage needs to, in some way, celebrate masculinity as masculinity. Gaying it up isn’t helpful. Furthermore, extending marriage into a situation, male-male relationships, where monogamy is unlikely doesn’t exactly send the message to other men that society expects you to take your marriage vows seriously. But few people can follow the kinds of complex economic arguments necessary to make the case this way, and the core of people opposed to gay marriage do so for religious reasons.

To cite another example, there are several good arguments against our current sexual mores (i.e. sexual anarchy). For most people, having a clear set of rules about when you should and should not engage in sexual relations was a good thing. It brought some order to the sexual marketplace. The old rules weren’t perfectly fair to everyone, but they dampened down the sexual warfare aspects of courtship and had the virtue of clarity. You knew when you had stepped into the outlaw zone. But of course no one, except perhaps yours truly, thinks about the complexities of the sexual marketplace when deciding whether to sleep with someone. No one thinks of how living with someone in a stable long term relationship subtly undermines the bright line rule that you should only engage in sex once married and thus increases the likelihood that the less intelligent and the less restrained will truly get themselves into trouble. So, the only effective way to convince most people of the need for restraint is a firm “Thus Saith the Lord.” The alternative, which is to vastly overstate the emotional and physical risks of pre-marital sex for everyone, is ridiculous. Secondly, there is the collective action problem within the sexual marketplace. In an anarchic sexual marketplace, it doesn’t make a lot of sense for just one person to act with restraint. There are plenty of men and women out there willing to do double duty. (If a woman doesn’t put out, a man can go off to find someone else who will, while if a man restrains himself during dating while others do not, unless his dates come from a pool where chastity is the norm, chances are he will end up buying at full price the cast off of some someone like Roissy.) So, unless you ensconce yourself in a smaller religious community you have to put yourself out there to compete. But, in doing so, almost everyone ends up just slightly less well off. Most women are putting out slightly sooner than they really want to and sleep with a couple men they really wish they hadn’t, and most men are ending up with someone slightly more sexually experienced than they would prefer (i.e. with slightly more sexual experience than they have). Once again, most people are totally incapable of following the logic here, so the only recourse for convincing people is to proclaim morality by divine fiat and unapolagetically enact policy that reinforces this. (In this particular case, I’d suggest much tighter divorce laws (but not abolishing divorce altogether), stripping fathers of any rights over children unless married to the mother, ending the right to child support unless the mother is married to the father, and reintroducing criminal sanctions against adultery.)

As a side note, I don’t really get the fetish many people have about keeping opposition to Darwinian evolution out of schools. I myself am a firm Darwinian, but all sorts of absurdity is taught in our public schools, much of it with far worse social and public policy implications. Why the particular outrage over this particular variety of creationism? The only thing I can think of is because of its reference to a supernatural being. The ideas of economic and racial, and sexual creationism are just as absurd, but are nonetheless all but our official ideology. They have not, however, made the mistake of appealing to the supernatural.

SUGGESTED FURTHER READING:
Megan McArdle on gay marriage.
Mencius on pseudo-atheists. My response is here
Mencius further opines on how our supposed rationalism is really nothing more than one group of religious (though often non-theistic) sects persecuting another.
Pith comments on publicly funded religious education here, here and here

14 Comments:

Blogger Thursday said...

Dear Pith and Andy:
I hope your happy. I started writing this at 6 in the morning and ended up missing church. ;)

12:55 PM  
Blogger agnostic said...

OK, so we tell anyone who couldn't make it through college that God says bad behavior is bad, and that's all they need to know.

But what do we tell the remainder? You've pointed out the logic behind sensible traditions -- do we just tell them that and hope they agree with the logic? If they don't share the same mental model of how the world works, they may agree with our reasoning but deny how well it can motivate real-world policies.

Trying to a decent fraction of this remainder into religion is not going to work. Among people in this stratum, you'd have better luck bringing back knee britches and silk stockings.

On the one hand, it may not matter what this remainder does -- they're not the ones at risk of committing violent crime, having several illegitimate children, and so on. But despite their incapability of harming the world on a small-scale, personal level, they are the ones who run society, and so can screw it up pretty badly themselves.

12:06 AM  
Blogger Alias Clio said...

Thursday, you appear to be agreeing with something I didn't actually say in my comment. Your comment that marriage needs to confirm masculinity is no doubt fair enough, but I believe that view comes from Steve Sailer.

No, what I was thinking of is this: we have a vast apparatus of state policy - in school sex education programs; hiring policies; what we are allowed to say on TV; the structure of social security programs etc. - all insisting that it does not matter if children have two parents of the opposite sex, as long as their parents love each other. We are not even allowed to disagree: saying that you think it's a bad idea to encourage women (lesbian couples or single women) to have children without fathers is likely to bring severe condemnation on your head.

Children are now going to be exposed to this ideology from the moment they first begin to talk (unless raised in some isolated religious community). After having drilled them in it for all their formative years, how the does society expect to convince them - especially the boys - to take sex seriously, to have sex responsibly, or even to take responsibility for their biological children? How are you now going to tell that after all it really is important not to have sex irresponsibly because you could be creating a life that will suffer if you are not there to help support it? How can you hope to convince them that biological fatherhood is of any significance if it's a thing you can sell at a sperm-bank for a few dollars, and the child who results from such conceptions isn't even allowed to know his/her father's name?

The fact that weddings may seem "gay" to some men is a trivial issue in comparison. There already appear to be enough men who think that marriage is for wusses, or something like that. Gay marriage doesn't seem to have been necessary to produce that result.

12:46 AM  
Blogger PithLord said...

Thursday,

Your post sends me off in eight different directions in reaction to it. One question I have is whether you are saying that God actually does command socially-useful norms, or that this is a useful fiction. But if it is a socially useful fiction, could it be a theologically harmful one? And isn't that more important?

2:12 PM  
Blogger Will S. said...

(1) Why would a religious believer be interested in the good secular reasons for socially conservative morality? They may be interesting in and of themselves, and certainly, may be useful for believers to cite in political debate for certain policies, in discussion with non-believers, but for a believer, what matters, other than, "Thus saith the Lord" or "Thus saith the Holy Fathers"?

(2) Why would a consistent secular humanist care about the social utility of socially conservative morality, if the only popular arguments for such, which can win public favour and become policy, are grounded in religious dogmas, which are considered to be fictions in the first place? Aren't most decidedly secular humanists too committed to their conception of truth to be moved by an appeal to something they'd consider false, no matter how useful it may be?

10:44 PM  
Blogger Glaivester said...

OK, so we tell anyone who couldn't make it through college that God says bad behavior is bad, and that's all they need to know.

But what do we tell the remainder? You've pointed out the logic behind sensible traditions -- do we just tell them that and hope they agree with the logic? If they don't share the same mental model of how the world works, they may agree with our reasoning but deny how well it can motivate real-world policies.


I believe in God. I also believe that God's rules have a reasoning behind them rather than being arbitrary fiat. Surely teaching that God says bad behavior is bad does not preclude also trying to point out the negative consequences of bad behavior. Those who are less sophisticated may or may not listen to the more detailed explanations; those who are mpore sophisticated may listen to them and decide that God is a useful fiction or else decide that God is real and that his rules nonetheless have a purpose other than making us jump through hoops.

Everyone wins. Except for the few who just don't care, and who will still engage in socially destructive behavior, but they will lose in any situation.

10:51 AM  
Anonymous blue said...

I think you, and if not you, then other bloggers in your blogging circle have written about how women don't understand how sex-addled men are, how women don't comprehend the extent to which men are motivated by female beauty, etc.

And the feeling I get reading your blog and those of your blogging circle is that you don't understand how emotionally vulnerable women can be when it comes to sex.

The alternative, which is to vastly overstate the emotional and physical risks of pre-marital sex for everyone, is ridiculous.

This statement is probably true for men. But having sex before one is married and living with a man has serious emotional risks for women, including intelligent, educated women. And unless you're from a traditional background, most women aren't informed of these emotional risks. They find out about them the hard way. They're usually only warned about pregnancy (which I think any smart girl can easily take precautions to prevent) and AIDS (which is completely overhyped).

Take the idea of living with someone. Are women told that if you live with someone, you are taking a huge risk because the man ultimately may not marry you? That the man may have no intention whatsoever of marrying you but may live with you anyway because sleeping with you suits him for the time being? That after you break up, he will not suffer any serious depreciation of his value on the dating market. But that you, on the other hand, will be older and thus much less desirable? And even more importantly, that your having had sex with someone and then having subsequently broken up with that person will hurt you emotionally more than it will him?

For example, why isn't the blogger Megan McArdle married? It seems she lived with her boyfriend and was going to marry him and then they broke up and she found herself single at age 29. I think she is 34 now.

Or why is Megan Non-McArdle (the other Megan mentioned at MarginalRevolution.com) unmarried? She dated her Asian boyfriend for 7 years (from age 23-30) and lived with him the final year. And then he decided that she was too domineering and left her. She is 35 years old and wants a husband and children very badly.

Or read stories from the book "Sex and the City." I remember stories about two women in particular, two bright but plain women, who fall in love with men out of their league. They enter into relatively long term sexual relationships with them. The men don't find these women attractive enough to be girlfriend material. But they're too busy at their jobs in investing banking or the like to find real girlfriends. So they sleep with these women until the women start making emotional demands on them, at which point they dump them. The women are hurt and angry of course.

On the other hand, this sort of thing never seems to happen to traditional girls, or at least the ones in my social circle.

Not having sex focuses the mind. It doesn't take traditional men who are not having sex with their girlfriends years and years to decide whether or not they want to marry them. So the girls do not waste their youth and beauty on men who aren't going to marry them. And if the men they are keen on do dump them (which when it happens happens after a matter of months), then the pain isn't as great as it would have been had they had slept with them.

And I think it’s this last point which I'm having trouble expressing. I remember the blogger Agnostic saying something to the effect of, “I would have no scruples against pumping and dumping a girl my age.” But it would hurt the 28 year girl to be used for sex, even for a one night stand, even assuming that she weren't keen on the fellow.

2:31 AM  
Blogger Thursday said...

Blue:

You make a really good point about the dangers of living together.

My only quibble is I think that you underestimate the number of women who enjoy their flings, especially if the man knows how to do it right. Women aren't always that nice.

9:18 AM  
Anonymous blue said...

My only quibble is I think that you underestimate the number of women who enjoy their flings, especially if the man knows how to do it right. Women aren't always that nice.

I think it's safe to assume and make rules based on the assumption that women are nice.

1. Men can use women for sex. Women may use men for money, but they don't use them for sex.

2. When a woman sleeps with a man, if she loved him before, then her love for him intensifies after sleeping with him. And if she didn't love him, then I think sleeping with him can have the effect of making her grow more fond of him. But a man becomes less interested in a woman after sleeping with her, even if he loves her.

3. All women, even the women, whom you term "bad girls" have feelings. I think the numbers of these women "who can have sex like a man" is greatly exaggerated.

I am a traditional girl, as are my friends. My knowledge of bad girls comes second hand. This is part of the reason why I mentioned "Sex and the City" in my last comment (the book! not the tv show). In the book, even women who know exactly what they are doing, who have affairs knowing there is no possibility of a long term relationship, end up deeply hurt in spite of themselves.

3:13 PM  
Blogger Thursday said...

I think it's safe to assume and make rules based on the assumption that women are nice.

No, it isn't, because, on average, they aren't. They may be amiable in the Austenian sense (agreeable in agnostic speak), but most women, like most men, are fairly crappy human beings. Not lipsmackingly evil. Just stupid and selfish.

(I should add that there are some pretty awesome girls out there too. I'm not that jaded. But they are the exception.)

Listen, I think you're right that the sexual revolution has had many victims among more intelligent women too, but _most_ intelligent women still seem to negotiate things fairly well. I think they would be somewhat better off under a more conservative norm, but not in an overwhelmingly obvious way.

3:48 PM  
Anonymous blue said...

Look, I thought you were using the word "nice" to mean the opposite of "bad" as in "bad girls."

When I said "nice," I meant vulnerable to being used. (I think it's safe to assume and make rules based on the assumption that women are vulnerable to being used and discarded).


I think they would be somewhat better off under a more conservative norm, but not in an overwhelmingly obvious way.


And I disagree. I think the men at the top of the heap would not be better off in a more conservative society, because they wouldn't be able to sleep around as much. But everyone else, I think would be better off.

5:35 PM  
Blogger Thursday said...

I think it's safe to assume and make rules based on the assumption that women are vulnerable to being used and discarded.

Fair enough.

everyone else, I think would be better off.

I agree, but by how much.

5:49 PM  
Anonymous Jacqueline said...

Couple of things:
First, great post. I enjoyed it a lot.

I think something you could have pointed out is how religion in public schools works both ways. By this I mean: There is a child who is raised in a strict creationist home. He must go to public schools because his family cannot afford a private one. Teaching evolution and ONLY evolution, leaving out any possible influence from a Supreme Being ultimately tells that child and that family that their faith is WRONG. Our public schools are establishing a system of secularism, a system of non-belief. A hindu child is taught that there is a linear path from birth to death- their religious views of a circular form of life and rebirth are wrong. Telling a devout Muslim that homosexuality is fine violates a strongly held religious belief.

While the Constitution certainly aims to protect government from religion, it just as much aims to protect religion from government. There is nothing in the Constitution that government may prefer a system of religion over non-religion, just that the national Congress may not establish a religion.

I really loved the points you made.

12:23 PM  
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4:41 AM  

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